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	<title>Comments on: DOJ compares Apple and publishers to big oil in ebooks case</title>
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	<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/</link>
	<description>The economics of digital content</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 04:04:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-136616</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rebecca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2012 03:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-136616</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hate that they claim only people with a financial interest sent opposing comments. I sent an opposing comment as a consumer who wants to keep the option to buy print books at the physical bookstores I prefer, and I saw a couple of other similar comments as well. True, that&#039;s only a few comments out of 900+ - but I also only noticed a few consumer comments that wanted cheaper e-books as well; there were just not many consumer comments period, on either side, but those that were sent in were not all pro-settlement. Most of the pro-settlement comments seemed to come from self-published authors with a personal dislike for large publishers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate that they claim only people with a financial interest sent opposing comments. I sent an opposing comment as a consumer who wants to keep the option to buy print books at the physical bookstores I prefer, and I saw a couple of other similar comments as well. True, that&#8217;s only a few comments out of 900+ &#8211; but I also only noticed a few consumer comments that wanted cheaper e-books as well; there were just not many consumer comments period, on either side, but those that were sent in were not all pro-settlement. Most of the pro-settlement comments seemed to come from self-published authors with a personal dislike for large publishers.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-136612</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rebecca]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2012 03:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-136612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So in other words - let them keep &quot;agency&quot; pricing (pricing the same at all retailers) but the agency price has to be lower than it is now?

Wish they would have done that. I have a strong preference for print books and physical bookstores, and I absolutely hate the thought of having less options, less places to buy, less choices because Amazon was given too much market power by the government with my own tax dollars. I am absolutely terrified of losing Barnes &amp; Noble and I hate that only e-book consumers have been considered rather than the interests of all book consumers in general.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So in other words &#8211; let them keep &#8220;agency&#8221; pricing (pricing the same at all retailers) but the agency price has to be lower than it is now?</p>
<p>Wish they would have done that. I have a strong preference for print books and physical bookstores, and I absolutely hate the thought of having less options, less places to buy, less choices because Amazon was given too much market power by the government with my own tax dollars. I am absolutely terrified of losing Barnes &amp; Noble and I hate that only e-book consumers have been considered rather than the interests of all book consumers in general.</p>
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		<title>By: David Schoppe</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-135125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Schoppe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-135125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[and thats why god invented pirate bay]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and thats why god invented pirate bay</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-134734</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-134734</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Also Amazon has made it quite clear they will lower prices as soon as they have the freedom to do so. Your contention it was Amazon’s choice to raise prices is non-sense.&quot;

Stop drinking the Kindle kool-aid.

Of course they&#039;re going to SAY they intend to lower prices in the future- promises you don&#039;t intend to keep are a great way to keep selling Kindles!

But they know fully well that the proposed settlement has big legal loopholes and probably won&#039;t make it past the judge as written.  If it does, they can always find another bogeyman to pin the inevitable price hike on.

Selling ebooks at a loss costs Amazon money, can you really argue otherwise?  Any opposition from them is half-hearted at best.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Also Amazon has made it quite clear they will lower prices as soon as they have the freedom to do so. Your contention it was Amazon’s choice to raise prices is non-sense.&#8221;</p>
<p>Stop drinking the Kindle kool-aid.</p>
<p>Of course they&#8217;re going to SAY they intend to lower prices in the future- promises you don&#8217;t intend to keep are a great way to keep selling Kindles!</p>
<p>But they know fully well that the proposed settlement has big legal loopholes and probably won&#8217;t make it past the judge as written.  If it does, they can always find another bogeyman to pin the inevitable price hike on.</p>
<p>Selling ebooks at a loss costs Amazon money, can you really argue otherwise?  Any opposition from them is half-hearted at best.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-134691</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 15:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-134691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[gah, lots of typos and no edit button.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gah, lots of typos and no edit button.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-134686</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 15:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-134686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ric

I think you&#039;re glossing over a major issue.

If you want to accuse the publishers of collusion to raise prices, fine.  $12-$14 for an ebook seems high.  It would be entirely reasonable for the DoJ to ask the PUBLISHERS (who are settling) to lower ebook prices, and possibly pay a fine, both of which they can totally do under the current contracts!

But that isn&#039;t what is happening.

The publisher&#039;s are being &quot;punished&quot; by agreeing to cancel their current contracts, industrywide, and replace them with new contracts that remove a standard clauses EVERYONE ELSE who sells an ebook (including Kindle Direct self-publishing authors) is required to sign.  They are then free to resume jacking up the price of ebooks, only they will probably go even higher because they know Amazon will subsidize prices back down for their own customers, (never mind that it will raise prices for everyone else.

The settlement doesn&#039;t even attempt to address ebook price fixing.

The DoJ needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something that punishes the people they are actually accusing of wrong-doing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ric</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re glossing over a major issue.</p>
<p>If you want to accuse the publishers of collusion to raise prices, fine.  $12-$14 for an ebook seems high.  It would be entirely reasonable for the DoJ to ask the PUBLISHERS (who are settling) to lower ebook prices, and possibly pay a fine, both of which they can totally do under the current contracts!</p>
<p>But that isn&#8217;t what is happening.</p>
<p>The publisher&#8217;s are being &#8220;punished&#8221; by agreeing to cancel their current contracts, industrywide, and replace them with new contracts that remove a standard clauses EVERYONE ELSE who sells an ebook (including Kindle Direct self-publishing authors) is required to sign.  They are then free to resume jacking up the price of ebooks, only they will probably go even higher because they know Amazon will subsidize prices back down for their own customers, (never mind that it will raise prices for everyone else.</p>
<p>The settlement doesn&#8217;t even attempt to address ebook price fixing.</p>
<p>The DoJ needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with something that punishes the people they are actually accusing of wrong-doing.</p>
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		<title>By: David Thomas</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-134581</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-134581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ricdesan: 

&quot;The bottom line here is collusion is collusion and the greed factor for a virtual product that doesnt relate to the production cost of said virtual item was manipulated and the players got caught period.&quot; 

 - Actually producers under the Agency plan made less per unit -- something they gave up to gain control of the product. The manipulation of the price happened at Amazon, where the price was artificially low.

&quot;Apple lured them into a situation that they more than likely wouldnt have gotten themselves into if it werent for apples desire to supplant Amazon marketshare.&quot;

 -- If Apple lured them in as you say, where is the collusion? Collusion implies that all parties participate in a price fix. Publisher&#039;s were more scared of product devaluation at Amazon, and a huge cut in margin whenever Amazon squeezed them to make the wholesale price 4.99, so they could take a 50% cut of the 9.99 price they invented to promote Kindle.

&quot;In the end Amazon priced ebooks at logical levels that their customers indicated they would pay for. &quot;
-- That&#039;s not market demand establishing price, that&#039;s a monopoly setting the price.

&quot;The publishers didnt like that price point and thought to control it in an anti-competitive way.&quot; -- By gaining control of the price, publisher&#039;s were able to ensure that prices were uniform across all dealers. This permitted competition between dealers to be fair, considering that in at least two situations and 70% of the market share was dictated BY THE TYPE OF DEVICE.

&quot;Busted is busted and it is good to see that the consumer is still a part of the product price point.&quot; -- Hunh? The consumer dictates a book purchase between books, and rising demand doesn&#039;t affect the price very much at all. The e-book selling for 12.99 at around 15,000 units per year cost the same as an e-book selling for 12.99 at around 150,000 units per year.

Given that so many free downloads and 99 cent titles sit unread on devices (this is in recent reportage) its hard to argue that price determines demand here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ricdesan: </p>
<p>&#8220;The bottom line here is collusion is collusion and the greed factor for a virtual product that doesnt relate to the production cost of said virtual item was manipulated and the players got caught period.&#8221; </p>
<p> &#8211; Actually producers under the Agency plan made less per unit &#8212; something they gave up to gain control of the product. The manipulation of the price happened at Amazon, where the price was artificially low.</p>
<p>&#8220;Apple lured them into a situation that they more than likely wouldnt have gotten themselves into if it werent for apples desire to supplant Amazon marketshare.&#8221;</p>
<p> &#8212; If Apple lured them in as you say, where is the collusion? Collusion implies that all parties participate in a price fix. Publisher&#8217;s were more scared of product devaluation at Amazon, and a huge cut in margin whenever Amazon squeezed them to make the wholesale price 4.99, so they could take a 50% cut of the 9.99 price they invented to promote Kindle.</p>
<p>&#8220;In the end Amazon priced ebooks at logical levels that their customers indicated they would pay for. &#8221;<br />
&#8211; That&#8217;s not market demand establishing price, that&#8217;s a monopoly setting the price.</p>
<p>&#8220;The publishers didnt like that price point and thought to control it in an anti-competitive way.&#8221; &#8212; By gaining control of the price, publisher&#8217;s were able to ensure that prices were uniform across all dealers. This permitted competition between dealers to be fair, considering that in at least two situations and 70% of the market share was dictated BY THE TYPE OF DEVICE.</p>
<p>&#8220;Busted is busted and it is good to see that the consumer is still a part of the product price point.&#8221; &#8212; Hunh? The consumer dictates a book purchase between books, and rising demand doesn&#8217;t affect the price very much at all. The e-book selling for 12.99 at around 15,000 units per year cost the same as an e-book selling for 12.99 at around 150,000 units per year.</p>
<p>Given that so many free downloads and 99 cent titles sit unread on devices (this is in recent reportage) its hard to argue that price determines demand here.</p>
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		<title>By: ricdesan</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-134546</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ricdesan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-134546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The bottom line here is collusion is collusion and the greed factor for a virtual product that doesnt relate to the production cost of said virtual item was manipulated and the players got caught period. 

Apple lured them into a situation that they more than likely wouldnt have gotten themselves into if it werent for apples desire to supplant  Amazon marketshare. 

In the end Amazon priced ebooks at logical levels that their customers indicated they would pay for. The publishers didnt like that price point and thought to control it in an anti-competitive way. Busted is busted and it is good to see that the consumer is still a part of the product price point. 

Get used to it publishers. The music industry can teach you many lessons on what NOT to do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The bottom line here is collusion is collusion and the greed factor for a virtual product that doesnt relate to the production cost of said virtual item was manipulated and the players got caught period. </p>
<p>Apple lured them into a situation that they more than likely wouldnt have gotten themselves into if it werent for apples desire to supplant  Amazon marketshare. </p>
<p>In the end Amazon priced ebooks at logical levels that their customers indicated they would pay for. The publishers didnt like that price point and thought to control it in an anti-competitive way. Busted is busted and it is good to see that the consumer is still a part of the product price point. </p>
<p>Get used to it publishers. The music industry can teach you many lessons on what NOT to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Arielle Smith</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-134498</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arielle Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-134498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The ABA and Barnes and Noble make a good point: the comments made against Amazon far outweigh those in support of the company. I thought the DOJ was supposed to take the public&#039;s opinion into account in their final decision.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ABA and Barnes and Noble make a good point: the comments made against Amazon far outweigh those in support of the company. I thought the DOJ was supposed to take the public&#8217;s opinion into account in their final decision.</p>
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		<title>By: David Thomas</title>
		<link>http://paidcontent.org/2012/08/23/doj-compares-apple-and-publishers-to-big-oil-in-ebooks-case/#comment-134340</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paidcontent.org/?p=216803#comment-134340</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your defense of Amazon is understandable, but Peter was correct that MFN and agency pricing, though in the same sales contract, performed completely different functions. Second, you are correct that Amazon did not choose to raise e-book prices for titles from Agency publishers -- they still had complete freedom to charge whatever they wanted on non-agency titles. The agency plan is essentially a contract of ownership, which recognizes that the e-book, being dependent on a device for use, is very different from a physical book and the actual responsible owner of the product is the producer/vendor, and nothing of it is actually &quot;owned&quot; by the reseller whether it was Amazon or Apple. The price, therefore, was set by the producer/vendor. MFN, in concert with that power, guaranteed that the producer/vendor would not be able to have two different prices for the same title at different vendors. Studies have shown, however, that agency plan e-book prices overall dropped...the ire from a consumer standpoint is that brand new (and presumably highly desirable) e-book titles by leading creators which Amazon sold below net cost for approximately two years suddenly jumped an average of four dollars. In economic terms, there was a falsely perceived consumer surplus created by the monopoly reseller with their own share of the producer surplus. The producer reset the terms and the defined the dealer&#039;s share of the producer surplus so that it could not be used to deceive the consumer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your defense of Amazon is understandable, but Peter was correct that MFN and agency pricing, though in the same sales contract, performed completely different functions. Second, you are correct that Amazon did not choose to raise e-book prices for titles from Agency publishers &#8212; they still had complete freedom to charge whatever they wanted on non-agency titles. The agency plan is essentially a contract of ownership, which recognizes that the e-book, being dependent on a device for use, is very different from a physical book and the actual responsible owner of the product is the producer/vendor, and nothing of it is actually &#8220;owned&#8221; by the reseller whether it was Amazon or Apple. The price, therefore, was set by the producer/vendor. MFN, in concert with that power, guaranteed that the producer/vendor would not be able to have two different prices for the same title at different vendors. Studies have shown, however, that agency plan e-book prices overall dropped&#8230;the ire from a consumer standpoint is that brand new (and presumably highly desirable) e-book titles by leading creators which Amazon sold below net cost for approximately two years suddenly jumped an average of four dollars. In economic terms, there was a falsely perceived consumer surplus created by the monopoly reseller with their own share of the producer surplus. The producer reset the terms and the defined the dealer&#8217;s share of the producer surplus so that it could not be used to deceive the consumer.</p>
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